How Data Builds Trust and Creates Headspace

Pia Stoklund: I always say to my team — and speaking about “always on” — that it’s important that we, actually, you know, do get the headspace that we need to be both good advisors and also to be creative about the solutions that we go with. So, to me, having the right flow of data gives you a bit more headspace because you don’t need to second-guess.  

Shahar Silbershatz: Hi everyone, and welcome to Always On, your podcast about brand, reputation, and data-driven communications. It’s a sunny day in Copenhagen, which doesn’t happen often, and today I’m doing something quite unusual. I’m interviewing a guest who is also based in Copenhagen, and that is Pia Stoklund. Pia is Global Head of Corporate Marketing and Communication at DSV, which is the global logistics leader that literally last week doubled its workforce, more or less, to 160,000 people. So that’s great timing to have you with us. Welcome to Always On, Pia. 

Pia Stoklund: Thank you, Shahar. A pleasure to be here. 

Shahar Silbershatz: So you and I have known each other for a long time, but to our listeners who don’t know you, why don’t you tell us, who is Pia Stoklund? 

Pia Stoklund: Oh, that’s a difficult one to kick this off with, Shahar. So, I’m, first and foremost, the mother of three sons, grown up now. Such a privilege to see the world through their eyes. Professionally, I’ve been within the field of communications, branding, and marketing for around 25 years. 

Started out on, you could say, the business side, being a business consultant. Always found the kind of “How do you gain the right impact? How do you make real changes?” super interesting, which took me into communication, which took me into how to facilitate dialogues with stakeholders in order for stakeholders to trust and support what you’re doing as a company. 

Shahar Silbershatz: So let’s rewind a little bit to the very, very beginning. So you already touched on that, and I want to understand that a little bit better. What got you into this world of comms in the very beginning? How did you start your career in communications? 

Pia Stoklund: So I actually started out in finance and then, as I said before, as a consultant at Accenture. Then I quite quickly found that, yeah, this is about how do you actually impact things? How do you make a change happen? That was what was kind of driving me, what I was curious about. And that is very closely related to comms and then that was kind of my way into corporate communications. 

Shahar Silbershatz: And, as unusual as it sounds, we’ve already had another guest on the show who also made a switch from finance to comms. So it sounds like it is actually a route that many people take. And you also mentioned in your intro that you’ve gone through several industries and sectors throughout your career. And I’m curious to hear, how do you think that has benefited you as a communicator to actually work in these different environments, different sectors?  

Pia Stoklund: It’s understanding where different people, different stakeholders, come from. What is their reality? What is their perception? Then, gaining a strong understanding of the industry, the company, that I work within, and then to try to see, “So where do we have that sweet spot of common interest so we can start having a dialogue, maybe a collaboration, maybe a partnership, and gain stakeholder trust and support?” And then, no matter the industry, no matter the company, you have many different stakeholders. And then, I mean, it’s just a matter of entering into a new industry and another company. But it’s the approach, the curiosity of, actually, gaining that understanding and finding that sweet spot where you can start a conversation that matters. So I think that is what has taken me, you know, through many different industries and companies. And then you asked, “What have I gained from that?” Was that your question? 

Shahar Silbershatz: Well, if you feel, as a communicator, it gave you a rounder perspective or different, more dimensions to look at things and how you work.  

Pia Stoklund: It has fueled my curiosity and also understanding that the world is often more complex than what it looks like at first sight. So you might think that employees are driven by this and that, but when you then dive into it, and then when you have seen many different stakeholder groups and many different industries, you know you need to, you know, dive a bit deeper and not make assumptions.  

Shahar Silbershatz: Yeah. So in a sense, it challenges you also, as a communicator, to be in different sectors and understand that sometimes there are other perspectives that you’re missing. 

Pia Stoklund: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 

Shahar Silbershatz: And you mentioned a 25-year career, and I’m curious how you see the evolution of our landscape, the communication landscape. How do you think it’s changed mostly over the course of your career? 

Pia Stoklund: I think it used to be much more transactional and much more kind of a bilateral exchange with a certain stakeholder group. So, of course, you were selling to your customers, you were talking to your employees. When the media called, you answered, and then the next day, you would see something in print. So that was how it used to be. 

I think today it’s a much more, one would say, complex ecosystem. Holistic. You have many dialogues going at the same time, and you cannot be, you know, as transactional, targeted, in your interactions because you, no matter where you… I mean, if you host a town hall internally, you need to be mindful that this will be on social media, you know, 30 seconds later, then it could travel to the traditional media, then it could go to, you know, customers and so it’s, it’s… and the pace is much faster. So, it is much more a kind of ecosystem with a lot of different connections than it used to be. 

Shahar Silbershatz: Absolutely. And we are finding, too, that this kind of growing complexity is one of the things that we’re seeing, and that the world is changing and this growing complexity also means there’s a lot more volatility and there’s a lot more speed in how things are going, and in many ways that also means that communication teams need to be “always on”. Hence the name of our podcast. How do you find that you are individually… or are you individually  “always on” in that sense as well? 

Pia Stoklund: Yeah. And especially so when, I mean, when heading a comms and marketing function, with a presence… in a company with a presence in more than 90 countries. So yes, this is pretty much a 24/7 job. And of course, you need to find structures that support that because of course no individual can be on 24/7. Yeah, so definitely I recognize it. I also recognize the challenge of building structures that make it possible to be “always on”. 

Shahar Silbershatz: And what are some of those structures? Or if you think about your team, how do they stay “always on”? What tools do they use to stay “always on” or always aware of what’s going on? What are some of the tools and the structures or the processes that help them do that?  

Pia Stoklund: What we currently do is, I mean, we have the media surveillance. We have internal structures with, you know, team sites and the like, where we share, “So what is going on in different regions?” And in that way, try to stay on top of things. Then we of course have the dialogues when we have surveys. So different kinds of measures. 

Shahar Silbershatz: And what would you say is the way today for communication teams to measure in an “always on” environment? 

Pia Stoklund: Back then, when we were more transactional, then you kind of had… of course we also had objectives KPIs, at that point in time … but then you had kind of an annual survey, an annual report, that then showed you how things were going and then you said, “Okay, that’s fine.” And then you got your bonus or you didn’t, right? More or less, to be a bit black and white. Today, in order to navigate the complexity, the much more interrelated stakeholder relations communications path, you need to be able to make much more informed decisions here and now, which calls for a much more data-driven and more real-time intelligence than what we used to have. 

Shahar Silbershatz: And would you say that one of the main differences, then, from traditional metrics for measuring success to today’s metrics, is the fact that it’s more frequent, more “always on”, more real-time, or is it also the type of metrics that teams are looking at? 

Pia Stoklund: Yeah, both, I think. And then this, also because… I mean many more processes, I mean, in daily life, but also in corporate life, are data-based, data-driven. So this is not just about getting data that tells you how you have performed in the past. I mean, my internal stakeholders expect me to have, you know, data to base my advice and recommendations on. So I think it’s much more that you try to get data that can actually steer your decisions instead of just, you know, looking back. 

Shahar Silbershatz: Yeah. And that’s probably the key aspect, that is data that is quick enough to be able to help you make a decision than reflect back. 

Pia Stoklund: I also think one aspect that I want to call out here is that, for instance, when you go through a reputational crisis, then, as a CCO, that can take up all your time. It can also take up a lot of resources at the top management, and it can become very big. So in order to calibrate that perception, because that is what you, you know, work with 24/7 to calibrate that and get a, you know, more realistic view on how this is actually being perceived. So to get that data in, to steer your decisions, your approach, instead of, you know, that being driven by how you sense things are … because they tend to be … it comes with a bias… because even if you… of course, we all try to be super professional and saying, “Okay, this is because I work with this 24/7, it’s probably not that big”, but it tends to become bigger than it actually is, in my experience at least. 

And I think what real-time data can do is to, you know, provide you and top management with a more realistic picture of how things are actually being perceived… because many stakeholders don’t only think about you and your company. They have many, many different agendas. And that’s, I mean, just one point that I wanted to call out. 

And then, of course, it’s interesting to see, for instance, if you have a reputational crisis issue, whether it travels across borders, whether it travels across stakeholder groups. Because, at least how I tend to see it is, if you have… it might be a big case, for instance, in Danish media, but if customers, investors, employees are not reacting and if it’s contained to Danish media, even if — it’s not to underestimate the harm that that can do — but that’s one case, but if you see it’s jumping to other, I mean, across stakeholder groups or across countries, then it’s a totally different case. And it’s just so important to be able to, you know, follow that very closely and in real time, and not something that you then get to know, you know, too late. 

Shahar Silbershatz: Do you have a story you can share with us from the past where something like this was, actually, put to action, where you used real-time data to, actually, make a smarter decision? 

Pia Stoklund: Yeah, so I think when I worked at Nets, we also had our fair share of critical media. And we went from being, you could say, a Nordic, a Danish, company, and then went on to an M&A journey throughout Europe. For instance, we saw signs of a certain media case that we had in Denmark. Then we saw signs that the perceptions in Germany were also, you know, changing a bit, even though it didn’t jump to German media. But then we could dive into, “So what are the mechanisms here? Who should we…? Which stakeholders should we actually engage in dialogue with to try to mitigate this before it becomes too big?” And you would never be able to do that if you knew about it, you know, six months later.  

Shahar Silbershatz: So you used real-time perception data across geographies in order to inform some mitigating activities before something became too big a problem? 

Pia Stoklund: Yeah. Yeah. And also to learn … I mean, now we are talking, or I’m talking a lot, about kind of media issues, media crises, but also when you aim at building a certain position, then for instance, the media efforts, the marketing, also paid the, you know, efforts that you’re making, to take that position, build that position, does it resonate? Instead of, you know, just throwing money after, you know, money, making additional investments. So actually to see … now we are running, if we talk earned media with these kind of stories, do we see a difference, or don’t we, and if we, you know, tweak it a little bit here, do we see, you know, another reaction, and then if we see a certain reaction in one country, can we scale it? Instead of, you know, going out — especially when it’s also paid — instead of going out with, you know, one effort that you believe works across many geographies. You know, try it out, see how it resonates, and then you can scale it. 

Shahar Silbershatz: Okay, so you’ve also used that for optimizing activities, budget allocation, and so on, to become more effective. So data-driven communication is obviously a big topic both on the podcast but also generally in communications today. But there’s also this other side of communications, which is the human side and the creative side. How do you see the balance between those?  

Pia Stoklund: Yeah, that’s an interesting one. I always say to my team that — and speaking about always on — that it’s important that we, actually, you know, do get the headspace, that we need to be both good advisors and also to be creative about the solutions that we go with. So, to me, having the right flow of data actually gives you a bit more headspace because you don’t need to second-guess. You actually have some data. Then, of course, you need to analyze, but that also gets easier when you, you know, understand data better and better. And then to me, you need to have that headspace and that ability to, you know, add the thing that you cannot, you know, call out in an Excel sheet, but that you sense — that you sense is the right thing to do, based on an experience built throughout many years and many kinds of stakeholder interactions. So one thing is data, and then you, of course, need to do the more hardcore interpretation of that data, and then you need to have the headspace to add that, you know, “thing” that you can only gain, I think, by a lot of experience. 

Shahar Silbershatz: That’s an interesting perspective. So you’re saying,g actually, that the data can also free you to focus your creativity in an area that you know is going to be effective rather than explore too much. So in a sense, you see one reinforcing the other? 

Pia Stoklund: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. 

Shahar Silbershatz: Interesting. Now, what about leadership visibility in an “always on” world? I mean, how have you yourself in your career adapted executive communications strategies to meet new expectations when it comes to how visible leadership should be and the type of decision-making that leadership should make? How has that affected your work, or how has that changed over the years? 

Pia Stoklund: It has changed quite dramatically, I think, in the sense that, back then, for instance, I mean, you had your CEO out in the big tier-one interviews, and that was, at least when we speak externally, the main channel. Now, I tend to say that the main channel is, you could say, LinkedIn, and the communication there, because it’s much more frequent and it’s more authentic, personal, and that is what many stakeholders expect, that you also share more of yourself, that is not just the role you want to … you know, you build trust to a human being. So, to get that across has become much more important. 

And also internally. I remember back then when we introduced a CEO blog on the intranet. That was a big thing. I mean, listening to the CEO reflecting and not just knowing everything — that was, you know, a big thing back then. And now it’s… I mean, you need to have that open line, you need to have town halls, where colleagues feel that top management is approachable, you can enter into a dialogue, they share a bit of themself and not just kind of the standard answer to everything. And also, you know, CEOs being open about not knowing everything, inviting, interviewing, actually colleagues, you know, to turn things around. I think that has become much more common. 

Shahar Silbershatz: I can imagine it’s been a challenging development because I know a lot of leaders are not comfortable being transparent and sharing more about who they are, as people, not just as leaders. What are the tactics that you’ve used over the years to actually get collaboration from CEOs, and I guess the C-suite in general, in this type of development?  

Pia Stoklund: I think there’s a big difference to me between being private and being personal, and you don’t have to be private, so to speak, but share, you know, personal reflections. I think that distinction actually makes it a bit easier for many, that it’s not that I need to, you know, share what I’m… this is not about necessarily sharing what you do in your spare time. This is more about having a personal perspective on things and showing that it’s not just this way that you actually have reflections around a certain topic.  

Shahar Silbershatz: Do you find that the need for leadership visibility and the growing need in an “always on” environment, do you find that also means that the relationship that you as a CCO have with the CEO becomes closer because you need to align a lot more on topics and on what the CEO talks about or the positions that the company takes? 

Pia Stoklund: Since there are many more interactions, I mean, the collaboration between top management and communication is also much more, you know, frequent and a continuous dialogue instead of, “Now we have our next quarterly result, and now we prepare for that.” You know, we, I mean, they communicate every day, and therefore, you know, you have to have that continuous dialogue. 

Shahar Silbershatz: Yeah. And in that context, I would imagine that this development, this change, is also part of what’s making the communications or the CCO world more strategic, no, because it’s more of a direct advisor to the CEO on many different topics all the time? 

Pia Stoklund: I mean, we can all communicate all the time, right? So it’s about being strategic about it, right? So, which topics, which platforms, which target audiences? I mean, so which kind of dialogues do you want to create by what you’re doing? So, I think that’s also where we as strategic advisors come into play, because otherwise, honestly, you could have a personal assistant working, you know, writing the posts. But to actually have an impact and create trust and create support for the company’s reason to exist and objectives, then you need to be quite strategic about it because there are so many, you know, different interactions. But to leave a mark and make an impact, they need to be pretty much on-message and very well thought-through, and not just, you know, another post here internally, externally, as you sometimes see still, I think. 

Shahar Silbershatz: For sure, for sure. And hopefully, this is one of the elements where the human factor of a good communicator comes into play, something that an AI assistant won’t be able to do as well. Let’s talk a bit about the internal aspect of communication because you’re currently leading a very big workforce, certainly after the Schenker acquisition. You’ve also led a big workforce at Pandora. I believe more than 30,000 colleagues are there. How do you approach communicating effectively to such diverse audiences globally, across cultures, across regions, I guess also across types of employees, but still maintaining a consistency of message, consistency of brand? How have you dealt with that in the past and today?  

Pia Stoklund: I remember 25 years ago, we talked about the importance of line communication, so leaders, communication, and leaders, as the most important comms channel, actually. And I think we are still, you know, working on that as comms professionals. But it is still so true that, if you can both communicate and convey the expectation to leaders that they actually have this more strategic communication role… It’s not just about giving feedback to employees, it’s also about connecting what is happening in the team to the bigger picture, for instance… if you can enable them to do that and set a direction, employee engagement would, everything being equal, increase. 

So I think conveying the expectation and enabling leaders is just very, very important. And there you can also adjust to local traditions, circumstances. But you, of course, still need to have a core that is the same across. For instance, at Pandora, when we had a capital markets day and a refresh of our strategy, that’s where you take the 300, you know, capital markets day slides and put it into a narrative on a one-pager — “This is actually who we are and the direction we are taking”. So it’s, I wouldn’t say, easy, because it’s not an easy task, but at least leaders can relate to it and use it in their daily communication with their teams. 

So make it simple. Leaders are super busy people, but they also want to do good. So, if you can put together, you know, that one pager with a strong narrative and then a few tips and tricks, tools that they can use in their daily interactions with their teams, I think you can gain a lot when it comes to employee engagement. 

Shahar Silbershatz: So, is it fair to say that, whether it’s a thousand employees or a hundred thousand employees, it doesn’t really change that much? As long as you can simplify and give a clear, consistent message to the leaders, to the managers, and the leaders in the different regions? 

Pia Stoklund: Yeah, and then build the right infrastructure. So, for instance, here at DSV, when I joined the company six months ago, we had, of course, an intranet, but it was very much driven or very focused on global news only, and then you need to build an infrastructure so that you can support, enable leaders. So now we have an executive leadership site for the top 400, and then we have another leadership site for all leaders across the company where we provide the one-pager, the presentation that they can use in team meetings, a few communication tips and tricks, and tools. And we have, you know, a certain cadence of meetings where we share the direction ahead and now a lot, of course, about the integration. So it’s building that infrastructure that could support, and that, I mean, is, of course, different if you have a thousand people or 160,000 people, but it is a matter of building … you know, having the right ways and then, yeah, use those in your communication. 

Shahar Silbershatz: Yeah. And you also basically drew a parallel between or made a connection between communication internally and alignment, because it’s one thing to be able to communicate a simple message yourself, the CEO or through the different managers and leaders in the company, it’s another thing to actually obtain alignment with the company’s brand and strategy across a very wide workforce. So, do you have any thoughts on that or any tips on how you also obtain alignment through a very diverse workforce? Like, in the case of Pandora where you were responsible for that. 

Pia Stoklund: To me, it was very important at Pandora to establish a global team. So, even if the local communicators reported into the regional management, to establish that community where we, of course, also had the feedback, so, “What is working? What is not working? What should we adjust?” But that we had a very clear, actually, playbook for doing that. So we had clear roles and responsibilities. “This is our narrative. These are the measures that we are using. This is the cadence we meet with, and this is how you provide feedback.” So, to get that global network going, instead of just sitting at the headquarters and, you know, pushing out comms, but really having strong ambassadors in the countries, to also, of course, adjust again to local differences. 

Shahar Silbershatz: And are you finding now, switching into the role at DSV, that you can use the same thinking, the same structures when you have such a large, even larger, I guess, now almost more than five times larger workforce and a more diverse workforce. Are you finding that you’re using similar processes and tools as you did before to do that? 

Pia Stoklund: Yeah. So we are definitely on a journey, building that kind of approach. Now, also because DSV, with its new strategy that they launched — I say “they” because I was not part of it — but at the beginning of last year is much more of an enterprise approach, where we are much more “one DSV” and doing things more in the same way. And it’s back to, I wouldn’t call my colleagues infrastructure, but it is, again, back to having the right infrastructure, but also the right core. I mean, “What is this brand about? What is our narrative? What is our aspiration? “And then, it’s about integrated communication and using the right infrastructure to get it out there. And of course, speaking about integrated communication, last week with our closing of the acquisition of Schenker, we have an integration tagline called “Winning as One” and a visual and some key messages around that. To see that, I mean, for days on social media, also running internally, actually also coming through in media interviews — that is, I mean, that’s a proud moment, of course, because that is when you see that the infrastructures you have built and the core that you have in your messaging, that they come together and then, I mean, the impact is just so much bigger. 

Shahar Silbershatz: I’m sure. I’m sure. Let’s look a little bit into the future, as much as we can. I mean, what are you seeing as the main trends or the main changes you think are coming to the communication landscape over the next five years?  

Pia Stoklund: The expectation of even more dialogue is probably one of them. So when I kind of joined a bank back then, 25 years ago, as an employee, you just expected the top management to, you know, set a direction — “This is how we do it” — and then we all, I mean, ran in that direction, right, to put it a bit black and white? And then we have seen a development where, you know, you have more interaction. But I think the next generation’s expectations of co-creation, co-sharing things, and that’s now, I take the example of employees, but I think that cuts across stakeholders, that this is about that you just want to influence, you know, someone, and then they should make the right decision. That’s not how it works. You know, you need to have… It’s a two-way street. And I think it’ll become that even more so in the future, which calls for, yeah, different ways of working, both within communication and marketing and in general, actually, as a business.  

Shahar Silbershatz: So, also in terms of, if you look at the corporate communication function, in terms of the structure, the organization, do you see that also changing in the years to come?  

Pia Stoklund: I still see a potential for corporate communication, and there are definitely geographical differences across the globe. But the acknowledgement of bringing that multi-stakeholder perspective to the table and being part of the decisions, I still think, actually across many companies and industries, there’s still a pretty big potential. But since, as I said before, I think the trend will be that you expect, as a stakeholder, much more dialogue, much more interaction, much more co-creation. The multi-stakeholder perspective will only… I mean, the importance of that will only grow. And therefore, the voice of the stakeholders is, in my mind, only becoming even more important in decision processes. So I don’t know whether, you know, structurally or structure-wise, but I hope that more companies acknowledge the need to have the multi-stakeholder perspective as part of their decision processes.  

Shahar Silbershatz: And what about the CCO role itself? Do you see that role evolving as well? Or how do you see that role evolving? 

Pia Stoklund: Of course, it’s evolving all the time, but from pushing out communication to facilitating dialogue. So, identifying the right arenas for facilitating dialogues with different stakeholders. It’s quite a different discipline than what it used to be, also, I mean, and is still in some industries, I would say, just, yeah, you know, “Tell them what to do.” 

Shahar Silbershatz: You’re saying, if I hear you correctly, you’re saying the CCOs themselves need to be less of a kind of top-down “What’s the message?” kind of person and more of a person who knows how to facilitate dialogues across different stakeholders, different people? 

Pia Stoklund: And therefore they also need to be in close dialogues themselves and have the right intelligence so that you know how stakeholders feel and think and behave, because otherwise it’s difficult to facilitate the right actions into the right dialogues. 

Shahar Silbershatz: For sure. Okay, and in that sense, that also means that the CCO themselves also need to be more comfortable with data and with being able to process a bigger volume of data. 

Pia Stoklund: Yeah. So it’s becoming much more about listening, and listening in a broad sense, than just broadcasting.  

Shahar Silbershatz: How does that relate to the CMO? You’re in a position now where you’re both CMO and CCO. How do you see the divide between the two? What do you see as the main differences now that you’re in that type of role? 

Pia Stoklund: But I actually think kind of the overall development goes in both areas. I think marketing, as a discipline, as a function, has a much longer tradition of using data. And they have many more… they’re able to follow the impact of their activities on a much more granular and frequent basis than what we have traditionally done on the comms side. There’s also a bigger investment typically when you do marketing activities, so that might have driven the need for actually being able to prove what do we then…? What is our return on investment? But I definitely think we can learn something in the comms world from the marketing world, on that one. 

HR is another, you know, “What can we learn from HR?” They are, they tend to, at least I’ve seen a development throughout the past, what, 10 years? They’re also more data-driven than they used to be. I still sense, and that big differences, but in too many instances, communication is just, “This is something that you need to d,o and then we do it. And then what is the impact? Hmm. We don’t know. But, you know.” 

Shahar Silbershatz: So, just to wrap up a couple of more fun questions. Are there any myths about communications that drive you crazy? Things that you always hear that people assume about communication,s or people say about communications that you think, “Ugh, that’s just so not true”?  

Pia Stoklund: I don’t know whether they say it, but when you are, you know, called in last minute. So, when the business has gone through, you know, a long decision process, and then you call communication and say, “Hey, we need to get this out.” This is, I mean — please stop it. Because of course, if you’re part of the decision process, you can bring that multi-stakeholder perspective in and then, I mean, there might be small tweaks that you can do in the decision, which will make, I mean, the decision fly much better with your stakeholders, instead of just, you know, assuming that comms can then fix the press release and then everything is done and dusted, right? 

Shahar Silbershatz: So that’s kind of the assumption that comms is not needed to make the decision. It’s needed to “message” the decision, in a sense. 

Pia Stoklund: Yeah. That’s a very good way to put it. 

Shahar Silbershatz: So we’ve talked a lot about staying “always on”, and I’m curious to ask, how do you switch off? 

Pia Stoklund: Oh, I do Yin yoga. Breathwork. Yeah. 

Shahar Silbershatz: And you probably didn’t have a lot of time for that over the last few weeks, closing such a massive acquisition? 

Pia Stoklund: No, but I will. I mean, in a few hours, I will be there on the mat. And it’s important also getting back to — I mean, you can get all the data in the world and, you know, have an amazing team and a strong mandate. But, to me, there’s still, you know, something which is more intangible and based on years of experience. And to connect with that, I at least need a bit of downtime. And I sense when I haven’t had it. I mean, I lose that thing. 

Shahar Silbershatz: Yeah, I totally understand. Pia, it’s been lovely to have you on the show. Thank you so much. We very much appreciate your taking the time in such a busy period to talk to us. 

Pia Stoklund: Thank you. It was a pleasure. 

Shahar Silbershatz: Many thanks for listening to this episode of Always On. If you haven’t done so already, check out some of the other episodes. They’re packed with unique insights from seasoned experts at leading companies. Oh, and if you have any comments or questions about anything you’ve heard on the pod, we’d love to hear from you. Just drop us a line at [email protected]. Thanks again for listening. Till next time, take care.